I think you caused me negative work.
I rather wanted
dtrace support and it seemed that because of you I didn't have to write it." -- Nicholas Clark,
on the joys of having other people do your work for you.
In the continuing "strict by default in 5.12" thread, Glenn Linderman made a most pertinent remark: Perl 6 has staked the "strict be default" claim. Perl 5 may approach the same place, but will have to do so more slowly. Not that it shouldn't be done, we need not burden ourselves with bad practices forever, but deprecation cycles and dealing with dormant CPAN modules and code in the DarkPAN means it will take time.
The other contentious issue (should extra strictures be activated from a
feature pragma) was addressed by Abigail,
who put forward the argument that
feature should be considered no more than a message from the programmer to the interpreter indicating that constraints regarding backwards compatibility are hereby waived.
advancing, unmasked http://www.xray.mpe.mpg.de/mailing-lists/perl5-porters/2008-01/msg00390.html the darkpan, defined http://www.perlfoundation.org/perl5/index.cgi?darkpan
brian d foy was puzzled upon learning that smart matching suffered from action at a distance, and wondered if it was all documented. David Landgren explained that it was a problem due to the
IOK flag being set, which caused the smart matching code to use numishness, rather than stringiness as a basis for matching.
Zefram rightly pointed out that this was exactly the sort of problem that prevented Perl from being able to be used in very large projects. Nicholas Clark asked himself what would happen if the IOK flag was not set during a numish comparison, were the number not truly numeric. And so now blead does just that.
no more action at a distance http://www.xray.mpe.mpg.de/mailing-lists/perl5-porters/2008-01/msg00199.html
Andy Armstrong added dtrace support to perl to probe subroutine entry and exit points and was happy to announce that it incurs no measurable performance hit.
Nicholas Clark made a number of comments regarding the patch: things that need to be done and the ways to do it. He went ahead and cleared up the nits and applied it all.
the patch itself http://www.xray.mpe.mpg.de/mailing-lists/perl5-porters/2008-01/msg00447.html
The main issue with the patch was dealing with
Configure, partly because not many people have strong
Configure-fu (and H.Merijn Brand was busy using his fu to attend to some sorely needed work on it).
Andy Dougherty helped out with a rough sketch of what needed to be done. Bryan Allen of pobox.com generously provided shell access to a Solaris box to get the kinks sorted out.
dtrace sees delight http://www.xray.mpe.mpg.de/mailing-lists/perl5-porters/2008-01/msg00176.html
Once that was more or less under control, the next question to ask was what probes should we have? The following items were put forward:
- Creation and destruction of SVs.
- Interpreter set-up and tear down.
- Module loading (
- Filesystem access.
- opcode arguments
One of things that needs to be addressed is that in order to trace the stack (C's or Perl's, really), a so-called ustack helper is what's needed, but these are fiendishly difficult to write. For a start, much of dtrace runs in the kernel, not in userland.
Much of the more esoteric discussion was cross-posted from the dtrace-discuss mailing list, where talk of ustacks certainly appeared to give them The Fear.
In the process of producing
dtrace support, Andy ran into trouble with getting the shellish idiom of if-not-condition-then correct.
H.Merijn Brand showed one way to do it, Zefram, another.
The discussion continued this week as to whether or not this would be a good idea. Michael Schwern started to jot down the history of why "map in void context" played such an important part in the history of Perl.
we have a wiki, man http://www.perlfoundation.org/perl5/index.cgi?map_in_void_context
Abigail maintained that it would be insane to start warning about a construct that has not previously triggered a warning, even if the construct was not considered to be a best practice (in which case a Perl::Critic policy would be more suitable).
Zefram put forward a suggestion that was endorsed by Larry Wall.
should we, should we not http://www.xray.mpe.mpg.de/mailing-lists/perl5-porters/2008-01/msg00213.html
Rafaël Garcia-Suarez waved his hands vaguely at the new error that comes out of
bleadperl -e 'use 5.10.1' and hoped something could be done about it. Steffen Müller showed how difficult it would be to solve the general case.
The only sane approach is for bleadperl to track feature sets in the current maintenance release. No new features could be added to 5.10.x after 5.12.0 comes out. Dave Mitchell thought add new features to a maintenance track was a bad idea anyway.
still waiting for patches http://www.xray.mpe.mpg.de/mailing-lists/perl5-porters/2008-01/msg00287.html
Adam Kennedy took his
YAML::Tiny module and made it even tinier by throwing everything that is not required to parse a META.yml file. He named it
Parse::CPAN::Meta so that it doesn't say "YAML" on the tin. The idea being is that it will permit richer semantics in dealing with module requirements. This could come in handy for dual-lifed modules and modules that depend on external libraries.
Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason found a minor YAML remnant in the test suite.
ain't what it used to be http://www.xray.mpe.mpg.de/mailing-lists/perl5-porters/2008-01/msg00384.html
Nicholas Clark was wondering what change caused a particular language construct to go boom! and asked Andreas König to fire up his magic binary search patch locator to find the offending change.
Andreas wasn't around, but Marcus Holland-Moritz was, and in about an hour had identified change #30755 as being the culprit. This enabled Nicholas to make the required correction.
homing in http://www.xray.mpe.mpg.de/mailing-lists/perl5-porters/2008-01/msg00399.html
Following that (if it's the same bug we're talking about) Dave Mitchell, Yves Orton and he kicked the problem around for a little while, and they appeared to arrive at the right solution by the end of the week.
stirring up trouble with re 'eval' http://www.xray.mpe.mpg.de/mailing-lists/perl5-porters/2008-01/msg00387.html
Michael G. Schwern had a chance encounter with a C-style
for loop, and realising that the range operation (
..) used a lazy implementation, noted that it was a Simple Matter Of Programming to get
for my $var (2..Inf) to Do The Right Thing. So he coded a quick and dirty patch (with a test!) to prove that it could be done. Much of the discussion that followed, apart from mentioning Ruby and
bc involved what to do when adding 1 to an integer value overflows.
from her to eternity http://www.xray.mpe.mpg.de/mailing-lists/perl5-porters/2008-01/msg00421.html
Jerry D. Hedden picked up the patch and ran with it, delivering a whole pile of code, documentation and tests to implement the whole show. Michael made a number of good comments, so Jerry returned to the lab and cooked up a fresh patch.
One sticking point was whether the range should stop or not, when the value outgrew the maximum size of an integer. Yves thought that if that was a problem, people should really be using
But even that approach is flawed, since after a few billion or quintillion loops any integer-based counter will begin to lose precision (after it is upgraded to a float following the overflow an integer). And transparently switching over to
Math::BigInt would be Really Hard.
I do it my way http://www.xray.mpe.mpg.de/mailing-lists/perl5-porters/2008-01/msg00551.html
A number of porters described the innovations they would like to see in perl 5.12, the next major release after 5.10. Nicholas Clark commented that a lot of the suggestions had high niftiness values, but noted that the difference between suggesting and implementing will impose its own natural selection of what gets done.
Firstly, a number of items were marked as deprecated in 5.10 and thus may be removed from 5.12. All that could be recalled for the moment was the
-P command-line switch and unnamed
package; declarations (which actually disappeared in 5.10).
all gone http://www.xray.mpe.mpg.de/mailing-lists/perl5-porters/2008-01/msg00282.html
Ricardo Signes wanted support from the language to let him know if the routine had been called as a method. Currently, there is no mechanism that lets you do this in the general case. One possible approach is to do it by extending
caller already returns an impossible-to-remember list of values, Mark Jason Dominus wondered whether the last element should be a hashref, or whether an alternate hashified
caller hashref should be made available. This suggestion attracted significant discussion, which evolved into calls for having
autobox brought into core. Nicholas Clark warned against making that decision lightly.
just so long as the hashref is purple http://www.xray.mpe.mpg.de/mailing-lists/perl5-porters/2008-01/msg00438.html
Michael G. Schwern proposed a
method foo declaration, that would work like a
sub foo, except that it fetches the
$self object from
@_ for free.
The open issues are, can you call it as a bare subroutine, what if you don't like using the name
$self, what about class methods, and should
$self be removed from
@_ or should it remain?
http://www.xray.mpe.mpg.de/mailing-lists/perl5-porters/2008-01/msg00459.html and it's on the wiki http://www.perlfoundation.org/perl5/index.cgi?method_keyword_proposal
Ricardo also suggested named lexical subroutines, to be used in situations such as comparator routines for
sort, while avoiding namespace pollution.
Dave Mitchell pointed out the problems this would have in terms of closures. He sketched out two possible implementations and pointed out the flaws in both of them.
Nicholas Clark recalled that Mark Jason Dominus was believed to be in the possession of a list of examples of the corner cases that would need to be addressed in any such proposal. Dave thought he could come up with one of his own at a pinch.
just a spoonful of sugar http://www.xray.mpe.mpg.de/mailing-lists/perl5-porters/2008-01/msg00439.html
Ricardo also mentioned a conversation with Matt Trout concerning the issue of creating anonymous packages. Currently it can be hacked together using
Class::Mix. In any event, more thought needs to go into what the syntax should be.
heh, inherit from *that* http://www.xray.mpe.mpg.de/mailing-lists/perl5-porters/2008-01/msg00440.html
Michael then kicked off a very large thread by p5p standards, proposing real honest-to-goodness named parameters. One point he stressed was that what ever solution is implemented, it doesn't have to be perfect. We could apply the 80/20 rule and strive for a simple solution that is satisfactory 80% of the time.
Then the difficulties began to surface: should the parameters that are named be removed (or not) from
@_ (see also: the method declaration thread). Should the parameters be aliases (fast, but dangerous) or copies (slow and safe, and conforms to the Principle of Least Surprise). What happens if not enough parameters are passed. Can we have defaults? How does this tie in with prototype specifications?
One useful item to come out of the discussion was a post from Juerd Waalboer who stepped of with a review of subroutine signatures in Perl 6, and is worth stealing from it for Perl 5. Another point is that, one way or another, we'll need better support for aliases in the language. Solve that problem, and named parameters are a piece of cake.
http://www.xray.mpe.mpg.de/mailing-lists/perl5-porters/2008-01/msg00458.html also wikified http://www.perlfoundation.org/perl5/index.cgi?named_parameter_proposal
Aristotle Pagaltzis put forward an elegant suggestion to deal with
length(undef). Rather than issuing a warning, it should quietly return
undef. Rafaël Garcia-Suarez liked the idea so much that he tried to implement, but was stumped by a number of strange failures in the test suite.
Nicholas Clark picked up where he left off, and discovered that it is horrendously hard to get it to work correctly with tied variables. After a number of patches, the implementation was satisfactory, and in the process, Nicholas uncovered a bug involving (drum roll) UTF-8.
how long is a string http://www.xray.mpe.mpg.de/mailing-lists/perl5-porters/2008-01/msg00510.html
Marcus Holland-Moritz's refactoring of PL_opargs generation in opcode.pl from last week was applied. As was Jerry Hedden's File::Temp cleanup and his
~~ is not a feature documentation tweak. The perlcommunity.pod patch from brian d foy was also applied, despite being in a yucky diff format.
\X is equivalent to an atomic group made it too.
see last week for URLs
Jari Aalto put forward the sensible suggestion of using
qx() instead of backticks (`) since it's to confuse with an apostrophe, and some non-English keyboards make it quite difficult to generate.
Tels fell of his chair since he didn't even know that
qx() existed, but made up for it by spotting an leftover ` in Jari's patch.
told you they were hard to see http://www.xray.mpe.mpg.de/mailing-lists/perl5-porters/2008-01/msg00197.html
Rick Delaney picked up the gauntlet and delivered a patch to fix the issue identified by Dave Mitchell, where the
OPpASSIGN_COMMON wound up being set in error. The amazing part was that Rick didn't even believe there was a performance problem, but fixed it anyway. When the benchmarks were run, it was clear there was a net gain.
Dave the M, right as usual http://www.xray.mpe.mpg.de/mailing-lists/perl5-porters/2008-01/msg00219.html
Data::Dumper to handle blessed regexes in blead, but cautioned that the code was probably still too raw for previous releases.
a blessing in disguise http://www.xray.mpe.mpg.de/mailing-lists/perl5-porters/2008-01/msg00239.html
That gave Jerry D. Hedden some grief, until he tracked down the reason for the failure.
that's not supposed to happen http://www.xray.mpe.mpg.de/mailing-lists/perl5-porters/2008-01/msg00283.html
Jerry has been building perls for quite a while without including the XS component of
re. Yves Orton thought a perl without
re, since it was a pragma.
Jerry revised the patch two more times to get it into shape.
running light http://www.xray.mpe.mpg.de/mailing-lists/perl5-porters/2008-01/msg00292.html
During the discussion, Yves Orton noticed that
regexp_pattern really belonged in universal.c.
So Jerry made the move, wrote the appropriate changes and their attendant tests and this enabled other tests to be moved around and simplified some additional housework in
Data::Dumper. All applied by Rafaël.
moving to new digs http://www.xray.mpe.mpg.de/mailing-lists/perl5-porters/2008-01/msg00339.html
Yitzchak Scott-Thoennes noticed that op/sprintf.t could produce meaningless messages on failure, and changed this to make it start making sense again. Applied by Nicholas Clark.
Steve Hay upgraded his smoking kit to the latest CPAN version, and discovered to his dismay that it could no longer mail the smoke results. He proffered a patch to get things going again.
still smoking http://www.xray.mpe.mpg.de/mailing-lists/perl5-porters/2008-01/msg00337.html
Florian Ragwitz thought that the results of deparsing a switch statement were suboptimal and offered a patch to make things better. Rafaël applied the patch, and added a test too.
given a patch http://www.xray.mpe.mpg.de/mailing-lists/perl5-porters/2008-01/msg00352.html
A thread in late November about slowness in
can for AutoLoader was put on hold during the freeze for 5.10.0. Rafaël dug out the final patches and applied them. Steffen Müller said he'd push a new version out to CPAN.
picking up where we left off http://www.xray.mpe.mpg.de/mailing-lists/perl5-porters/2008-01/msg00342.html
Andy Armstrong had been working on
IPC::SysV and noticed that the droppings left over by revision control messed things up and proposed a patch to fix things up again.
A debate followed as to how, when and where to solve the problem and at the end of the day, the appropriate repositories received the appropriate patches.
repository droppings http://www.xray.mpe.mpg.de/mailing-lists/perl5-porters/2008-01/msg00350.html
Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason moved the stringification of regexps into sv.c following Nicholas Clark's work of raising regexps into first class objects. Ævar explained that this would not break the pluggable interface for the regexp engine.
Nicholas smoothed over some of the rough bits and applied it to blead.
just another SV http://www.xray.mpe.mpg.de/mailing-lists/perl5-porters/2008-01/msg00406.html
Robin Barker noticed that the last patch to manicheck broke its
-m command line switches. So he fixed it. Applied by Rafaël.
switched on http://www.xray.mpe.mpg.de/mailing-lists/perl5-porters/2008-01/msg00435.html
Jarkko Hietaniemi desired bad code to die a quick death by way of a segmentation fault, Steve Peters complied.
0xfff58005fff58005: segmentation fault *and* NaN http://www.xray.mpe.mpg.de/mailing-lists/perl5-porters/2008-01/msg00562.html
There was a problem with platforms that were able to fork, or merely pretend to, or cannot. This was corrected, and Steve Hay recommended that for dual-lifed modules that need to test forking, the best practices may be found in Test/Simple/t/fork.t and IO/t/io_pipe.t.
there is no fork http://www.xray.mpe.mpg.de/mailing-lists/perl5-porters/2008-01/msg00192.html
A bug involving a child reading from a file and looping back to the beginning and reading again, and again was posted nearly eight years ago (hence the low bug id). The problem was kicked around for a while, but no-one was able to figure out what was going wrong.
And there the bug slumbered from many years, until Franz Fischer revived it a few days ago, having run into the same behaviour on HP-UX.
better luck this time http://www.xray.mpe.mpg.de/mailing-lists/perl5-porters/2008-01/msg00587.html let's do the time warp http://rt.perl.org/rt3//Ticket/Display.html?id=3387
Abigail posted this bug four years ago, and noting that the problem was still present, created a TODO test for it.
Yves Orton wondered if the problem occurred outside of a
map but Abigail listed a number of variations on theme that produced an interesting variety of segfaults, valgrind errors or memory exhaustion, and some that worked just fine.
I told you map in void context was evil http://www.xray.mpe.mpg.de/mailing-lists/perl5-porters/2008-01/msg00362.html
Peter Dintelmann reported a bug that was actually due to a misunderstanding of the documentation, so Rafaël tried to improve that.
it's the way it is http://www.xray.mpe.mpg.de/mailing-lists/perl5-porters/2008-01/msg00209.html
Jason Hord filed a bug last month the behaviour of
-x when using the
filetest pragma and attached a patch to fix it up. This week, Rafaël applied the patch.
hooray for bug reports with patches http://www.xray.mpe.mpg.de/mailing-lists/perl5-porters/2008-01/msg00207.html
Rafaël committed a fix that he thought should fix the bug that David Leadbeater reported last week.
anon deparsing is go http://www.xray.mpe.mpg.de/mailing-lists/perl5-porters/2008-01/msg00201.html
Ben Okopnik pointed out that the documentation in this module refers to a book that never has, and probably never will be published.
a tad optimistic http://www.xray.mpe.mpg.de/mailing-lists/perl5-porters/2008-01/msg00212.html
"mz" reported a significant regression in the clarity of error messages between 5.8.8 and 5.10.0 when attributes are involved. No takers as yet.
Imacat from Taiwan, who runs a very tight testing ship, reported that the
Test::Harness::Straps shipped with 5.10.0 is quite far behind the current CPAN version. Furthermore, upgrading the module copies it to the site directory, hence shadowed by the older core version. Michael G. Schwern fixed this.
Imacat also asked Michael to bundle a Makefile.PL, to enable a vanilla 5.8.8 distribution (sans
Module::Build to install THS automatically in a CPAN shell.
Michael was a little more reluctant to take on this additional technical debt, but Andreas König thought he had little choice.
Abigail uncovered a curious omission in the implementation of
state variables, and wrote a TODO test to help with the search for the solution.
here you see it, there you don't http://www.xray.mpe.mpg.de/mailing-lists/perl5-porters/2008-01/msg00336.html
Mark Overmeer wrote a small test case showing that
syswrite failed to honour encoding directives.
Goro Fuji noted that
overload::constant doesn't work if the constant in question contains escaped characters. Michael G. Schwern hypothesised that the presence of a backslashed character caused the code to run down the wrong path.
the high road be shorter, but the low road prettier http://www.xray.mpe.mpg.de/mailing-lists/perl5-porters/2008-01/msg00427.html
Mashrab Kuvatov filed a bug regarding problems with locales, UTF-8 and Cyrillic. Rafaël trimmed down the test case, saw the problem, but wanted to obtain some reference material on how to read encoding definitions.
Marc Lehmann ran into a bug with
File::Copy but couldn't reproduce it (although unfortunately the effect was to remove the file being copied).
310 new + 1470 open = 1780 (8 created, 4 closed). Robin Barker wondered where his #49302 bug went.
http://www.xray.mpe.mpg.de/mailing-lists/perl5-porters/2008-01/msg00276.html overview http://rt.perl.org/rt3/NoAuth/perl5/Overview.html
- Math-Complex 1.43
Black smoke emerged from 1.42, reasons why
ok($a == $b)may be needed instead of
cmp_ok($a, '==', $b)were given, long doubles were overlooked and so Jarkko Hietaniemi pushed out a new version.
Andreas König identified the source of H.Merijn Brand's double free error in 5.10.0
it says "rgs@stencil" on the tin http://www.xray.mpe.mpg.de/mailing-lists/perl5-porters/2008-01/msg00166.html
And Moritz Lenz's bugs in extended regexp features were Warnocked.
perlbug it http://www.xray.mpe.mpg.de/mailing-lists/perl5-porters/2008-01/msg00167.html
H.Merijn continued to plough through his
Configure and metaunits work and was happy to report that he was down to a mere 193 warning messages.
a mere SMOP http://www.xray.mpe.mpg.de/mailing-lists/perl5-porters/2008-01/msg00171.html
Jari Aalto wanted an URL for Perl documentation. Two were given.
a vast program http://www.xray.mpe.mpg.de/mailing-lists/perl5-porters/2008-01/msg00186.html
Nicholas Clark was Warnocked over a parallel make bug in
because no-one uses it? http://www.xray.mpe.mpg.de/mailing-lists/perl5-porters/2008-01/msg00194.html
Craig Berry noticed that the latest REGEXP patches produced black smoke on VMS. Robin Barker and Nicholas Clark vied to produce the best patch to resolve the problem and at the end of the day VMS and Craig were happy again.
Yves Orton complained that development version numbers, warnings, XS and MakeMaker don't mix. The concensus is that using underscore in a version number to signify the beta release of a module to PAUSE blows chunks, and a much better idea would be to have something in META.yml.
a call for metadata http://www.xray.mpe.mpg.de/mailing-lists/perl5-porters/2008-01/msg00238.html
Nicholas welcomed Marcus Holland-Moritz's correction of an 8 year old bug, and wondered how much perl 4 code still remained in the code base, as this could lead to the possibility of correcting an 18 year old bug.
Andy Dougherty thought that much of doio.c dated back to Perl 4 and significant parts of sv.c could be traced all the way back to Perl 1.
layer upon layer upon layer http://www.xray.mpe.mpg.de/mailing-lists/perl5-porters/2008-01/msg00290.html
Coverity was a great help to the development of perl 5.10, helping pin down a number of questionable C practices. Andy Lester asked for volunteers to say good things about the product.
scratch my back http://www.xray.mpe.mpg.de/mailing-lists/perl5-porters/2008-01/msg00297.html
Max "Corion" Maischein made perl build again on Win32 when the path contains whitespace.
under program files http://www.xray.mpe.mpg.de/mailing-lists/perl5-porters/2008-01/msg00305.html
Patrick Rutkowski ran into a problem with
typedef definitions in XS code written in C++. Jan Dubois had already dealt with the problem in the past and show Patrick what to do.
Ask Bjørn Hansen encountered some weird behaviour when
./ (that is, with a trailing slash). Andy Armstrong noted that the perl in question was from a Red Hat distribution, and wondered if one of their own patches was interfering with normal
The latest version of the smoking harness for the perl core fell apart, and some fixes were made. Further improvements may be necessary.
sync early, sync often http://www.xray.mpe.mpg.de/mailing-lists/perl5-porters/2008-01/msg00322.html
Gerard Goossen released kurila 1.7, an experimental fork of the perl codebase, the aim of which is wto see what would happen if one were to free one's self completely of any notions of backwards compatibility.
where does a kurila sit? http://www.xray.mpe.mpg.de/mailing-lists/perl5-porters/2008-01/msg00338.html
Rick Delaney's patch from last week to allow the clearing of
@ISA from XS was applied.
assign with impunity http://www.xray.mpe.mpg.de/mailing-lists/perl5-porters/2008-01/msg00388.html
Robin Barker had some more consting goodness applied to POSIX.xs
strtoul() and helper http://www.xray.mpe.mpg.de/mailing-lists/perl5-porters/2008-01/msg00436.html
as well as
Filter::Util::Call from a short time back.
Nicholas Clark's change to assert that these are the regexps you were looking for came to grief on Jerry D. Hedden's machine. A revised patch appears to have fixed the problem.
This summary was written by David Landgren.
last week's http://www.xray.mpe.mpg.de/mailing-lists/perl5-porters/2008-01/msg00515.html
Weekly summaries are published on http://use.perl.org/ and posted on a mailing list, (subscription: firstname.lastname@example.org). The archive is at http://dev.perl.org/perl5/list-summaries/. Corrections and comments are welcome.
If you found this summary useful, please consider contributing to the Perl Foundation to help support the development of Perl.